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Exploring Sustainability With A Blue Mind | Dr. Scott Ramsey

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We all have a connection to water. More than the reason that it keeps us alive, we are also connected to nature and its bodies of water. Corinna Bellizzi sits down with Dr. Scott Ramsey, core faculty for Prescott College, who shares how he integrates Blue Mind science in their Sustainability Education doctoral program. They explore how our unique connection to water transcends emotional, cultural, and economic aspects. He also talks about his foundation of the Alaska Outdoor Science School that offers multi-day programs centered on social and environmental justice. Corinna and Dr. Scott also take time to remember Dr. Wallace J. Nichols, marine biologist, author, and creator of Blue Mind science, who recently passed away. Together, they celebrate his efforts that inspired both of them to take care of the environment.

 

About Dr. Scott Ramsey

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

Dr. Scott Ramsey (he/him) is core faculty for Prescott College's Sustainability Education doctoral program, teaching a wide range of courses including Climate Advocacy and Praxis, Sustainability Principles and Practice, and Academic Writing.

As a lifelong learner, Scott’s passion for the natural world fuels his desire to teach, engage, and inspire students to create a sustainable and just future through education and stewardship.

Scott’s decades of involvement as a wilderness guide and environmental educator compelled him to start the Alaska Outdoor Science School, which celebrates the wisdom of nature through multi-day programs that highlight the nexus between social and environmental justice.

 

Guest Website: http://www.alaskaoss.com

Guest Social:

https://www.instagram.com/exploreaoss

https://www.facebook.com/ExploreAOSS

 

Additional Resources Mentioned:

https://www.wallacejnichols.org

https://prescottcollege.edu

 

Show Notes:

Remembering Dr. Wallace J. Nichols - 00:52

Okay, it's a bit of story time here. This winter I met Dr. Wallace J. Nichols after having been introduced by a former guest on the show the co-founder of pioneers Nina Simons.

Slyvia Earle And Blue Marble - 09:53

For those who don't know who Sylvia Earle is why don't you share a word too and then perhaps we should also describe what this whole blue Marvel thing is about for those that haven't listened to that earlier episode.

Sustainability Education PhD Program - 12:25

I love to learn from you a little bit about how you have. Been inspired to bring in content like blue mind.

Sustainability Projects - 17:11

One of the things that got me thinking about looking at the syllabus and things like videos that will be watching around watersheds and the important of those Arenas.

Sustainability Naysayers - 21:48

One of the questions I wanted to ask you just kind of something that nags at me since interviewing Paul hockey and many others over the course of the last four years.

Alaska Outdoor Science School - 31:53

I was hoping that you could talk to me for a moment Scott about your work up in Alaska with the Alaska outdoor Science school this looks so intriguing to me.

Neuro-conservation - 39:38

Back to the to the J idea this notion of neuro conservation.

Sea Turtles - 46:14

It's circling back to Jay. Jay was pretty important in the keynote Bay.

Episode Wrap-Up - 47:02

I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me today.

 

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Exploring Sustainability With A Blue Mind | Dr. Scott Ramsey

Remembering Dr. Wallace J. Nichols

Welcome to another interview episode of Care More Be Better. I have some news to share with all of you, then we’re going to dig into the topic of sustainability education with yet another inspiring professor from Prescott College. It’s a bit of story time here. I met Dr. Wallace J. Nichols after being introduced by a former guest on the show, the Co-founder of Bioneers, Nina Simons.

These two incredibly talented and dedicated individuals got me thinking about my personal journey and what I wanted from the rest of my work life. Nina Simon’s approach to relationship and relational leadership, and her important work at the nexus of nature, culture, and sacred knowledge made me long to get back into the world of anthropological research.

I wanted to throw caution to the wind and abandoned my career for something even more purposeful. When I got to know Dr. Wallace J. Nichols or rather simply J, I was awed by his steadfast pursuit of everything that related to water from his work as a marine biologist with sea turtles to his environmental stewardship and his blue mind way of thinking with his book.

I witnessed in him someone who pursued the life dream that he had from the age of six. His Blue Mind perspective resonated with me so deeply that I found myself reflecting back on every life decision that I had made each time, and that I had made a step towards security and away from what I believe to be my true path.

I’m just a little hippie kid at heart. I’m the one who picks up the trash in the street on the trail or on the beach every time I see it. I’m the one who rehomes unwanted animals and rescues the runts. I’m the one who spends an afternoon cupping handfuls of water and pollywogs, saving them from drawing puddles so that they don’t bake in the sun.

I’m the same idealist, animal and nature lover that I’ve always been and a budding scientist that I was as a kid. It’s that fascination with who we are, how we live, and our effect on the world that got me to start this show in the first place. If you’ve tuned in to my last few episodes, you already know that J is no longer with us.

He sadly passed on June 10th just as I was learning about Prescott College through three recent guests on the show, Dr. Emily Affolter, Dr. Sebastian Grant, and Dr. Laird Christensen. Adding insult to injury for me was the simple fact that he was going to come back on the show this summer to talk about all things turtles so we could celebrate our turtle geekdom together. I plan to tell him then that he had inspired me to pursue my PhD in Sustainability Education at Prescott College.

Even in his passing, our story was not yet done. As I met with Emily Affolter who leads the PhD Program at Prescott to discuss the first courses that I would take, I asked to see his syllabus for one of the courses. It was called the Sustainability Principles and Practices of Sustainability Education. It’s taught by Dr. Scott Ramsey.

As I read over it, the first required textbook jumped off the page at me. It was this, Blue Mind: The Surprising Science That Shows How Being Near, In, On, or Under Water Can Make You Happier, Healthier, More Connected, and Better at What You Do by none other than Wallace J. Nichols. I started to tear up. I felt like he was in the room with me. Emily shared that Dr. Scott Ramsey, the very person teaching this course, was a collaborator of J’s and so there it goes, serendipity.

While my courses haven’t yet started, I decided to invite Dr. Scott Ramsey to guest on my show so we could talk about this shared connection about his work and honor J. I get there’s something more. I knew I wanted to have this conversation on July 19th, 2024. At the time, I didn’t know why I felt like it should happen today. In the process of prepping for this conversation, I went back to J’s LinkedIn page to look for something about the upcoming re-release of Blue Mind, which may not have been canceled given his death because I could not find the post.

I learned at that time that today would have been J’s 57th birthday, and so it goes yet again, serendipity. I’m not a religious person, but I do believe that when you’re on the right path, moments of meaning will line up to tell you that you’re right where you’re supposed to be. This is already gone on too long and I may start crying if I don’t do this now. I’m going to bring Dr. Scott Ramsey up now so we can get this thing started.

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Dr. Scott Ramsey, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

A longer perhaps intro than I’ve ever done, but I wanted to first say I wish you water. Nice meeting you.

Thank you. I’m choked up too. J was a dear friend of mine, a mentor, and a co-collaborator. I was in my first semester in the Doctoral program at Prescott. I went to Prescott for the Sustainability Education program as well. We were in Austin for a sustainability conference there. I was still circling around water. I’ve been a water person for decades. I saw the blue marble on the side of the book. I picked up the book, got it, and read the title. I put it on the counter and bought it without even opening it out. It turned out you could also schedule meetings with the authors. He was giving the keynote, so I was able to connect with J, then I was like, “This is the guy.” It’s wonderful to know you’re also a disciple.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

He sent me this book with a postcard and also a blue marble, and prepped for our first interview. This looks like it was hand hand-stitched bag that was floral. I knew it was a gift from him. It came from his address. After I finished reading the book and had the interview, I put this in the little free library down the street along with the marble to pay it forward in the spirit of the book.

After he passed, it was like, “I still had that book and that marble.” They’re gone into the world and that’s what he would have wanted, but I went back to the little free library. Somebody had put the book back. The marble was gone but the book was back. It was a little more worn. Now it has some coffee stains on the front, which I’m not sure you can see, but I am not going to give it back up again. It’s mine and apparently, I’ll need it for your course.

I was blessed and we were on the East Coast. It turned out J they were inspiring kids in oceanography and doing the Blue Mind thing. He asked me and my thirteen-year-old daughter if we would go down and help pass out marbles. We’re passing out marbles and hanging out. Sylvia Earle gives her talk. It’s motivational and inspiring. The kids are just into it.

Right after it was over, as it was ending, I could see J move across the stage. I knew what he was doing. He went directly to my daughter, grabbed her, brought her up on stage, and introduced her to Sylvia Earle. J had given Lily a marble to give to Sylvia. There’s this beautiful moment where Lily is giving Sylvia Earle the marble. It was in her pocket. She pulls out a marble and gives it back to Lily. It’s this incredible moment that we were able to have a few months ago.

Slyvia Earle And Blue Marble

For those who don’t know who Sylvia Earle is, why don’t you share a word or two? Perhaps, we should also describe what this whole blue marble thing is about for those who haven’t tuned in to that earlier episode.

Sylvia Earle, also known as Her Deepness, is profound in a variety of ways. Not just for amplifying water in the importance of oceans, but also amplifying the feminist perspective. Being one of the first people to dive deeper and do some research. She’s been voted in numerous Science Awards and is the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration’s Scientific Ambassador. She’s “Her Deepness.”

She’s been a colleague of J for a long time. The Blue Marble idea is that if you were to look at a marble and hold up the blue marble from a distance, you would have the same perspective you would have if you were standing on the moon. You would see a watery planet. The idea is marble would symbolize our watery planet and our connection to water. The idea is you pass the marble on to show respect and gratitude. That’s a way to connect people but also to realign with the wonders of water.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

 

Another thing I would point to with Sylvia Earle is I believe she was also one of the scientists featured and the Netflix documentary, Seaspiracy. One of those individuals was interviewed about the health of our oceans and where we are now. She’s one of the women who has been scuba diving longer than anybody else. That’s perhaps save for Jean-Michel Cousteau who I had the pleasure of interviewing and I’m seeing in person down at his 80th year of diving and discovery in Santa Barbara this last fall. Are you a scuba diver?

I’m not, but I am a snorkeler. I enjoy most aspects of water, but scuba is not my ideal.

Sustainability Education PhD Program

I love to learn from you a little bit about how you have been inspired to bring in content like Blue Mind to the sustainability education PhD program. Perhaps give me a little preview into what that course is going to be like so that I learn a little bit about it and those who are maybe curious as well could have something to say about it.

The course has multiple facets. These are pretty potent times and oftentimes, we feel divided and alienated for a variety of reasons. There are these things like our shared connection to water that bring us together and create bridges. Our neurology changes and our brain fires in the same place as it does when we’re feeling compassionate. It’s incredibly powerful and it’s no coincidence that we pay more for oceanfront.

The majority of the population lives by major rivers or oceans. There’s this common thing and whether or not we know it or not, there is an emotional value to water. Oftentimes, when we talk about sustainability, it’s moving now towards a moralistic view of how we should be doing these things like this.

There are oftentimes ecological perspectives. Stay with the water theme. We may want to protect the river because of its ecological benefits, but there’s also an economic benefit to water. For a long time, that’s what transportation routes were all about, getting goods and services to places cheaper. Oftentimes, those are on water routes.

The idea behind the course is to bring in this emotional piece. This also has a cultural piece. The other part is we want to build bridges instead of dividing them. We all share this planet and this neurological connection to water. The other thing about the course is while we feel disconnected from each other, we’re all oftentimes disconnected from where our food, water, energy, transportation, and waste go.

The idea behind the course is before you can make broad sweeping changes, whether or not that’s in your community, region, or globally, you need to take a deeper look at your own personal usage. That’s the course. What we do is we start with water, We look at how much water we use directly and indirectly. We keep a personal journal for water. While we’re learning about our regional water and global water issues, we’re also finding more about purposely looking at our own water usage.

There are ways that we do that for transportation, energy, and ultimately, for food. What’s hard to see is there has been this cultural amnesia that’s happened that we have forgotten that strawberries are wiped in the summertime. We’re just used to eating strawberries whenever and however. That’s not either good or bad. It just is, and what the implications are of having access to strawberries or avocados year-round, and what does that mean?

Oftentimes, they’re grown somewhere else or they're grown in a way that’s not regenerative. It has these broader implications. It’s about peeling all those layers and for us to be critically reflective to then explore our own community with its own nuances, how might we be able to address these issues that are a little bit more sustainable but also responsive and just?

Sustainability Projects

One of the things that got me thinking about looking at the syllabus and things like videos that will be watching around watersheds and the importance of those arenas. It caused me to think a little more deeply about the work I read with Paul Hawken’s Regeneration and how we need to champion certain apex species so that we can do things like restore wetlands.

In California, there are teams of people and environmentalists working to lobby for the beaver, for example, so that we can have more clean pristine freshwater areas that come inland and help to both bring nutrients to the soil, sequester carbon, and provide these estuaries for all sorts of animals and wildlife. Also, ensure that we can have genetic diversity and species diversity within the borders of our country.

We’ve gotten to a spot where we’ve essentially made it harder for some of these wild species to exist. There are some strong movements in that arena. Some wildlife corridors are being installed to help protect them from getting roadkilled. They try to cross the I-5 because you need to get to water, for example, as a deer or a coyote. It is like playing Frogger, a game that I love to play in the ‘80s. How many roadkills do you see and how we’ve cut off all these wild animals from the typical water sources that they might have during the drier months of the summer?

It is wonderful to see there’s more ecological literacy to see in these systems approaches and how you pull one thread in this tapestry and the whole weaving comes apart.

Ecological literacy is becoming more important these days. If you pull one thread in this tapestry, the whole weaving comes apart.

That breaks your heart. You spend time in Southern California and you see people spending all these resources to water lawns that aren’t even used. It’s just decoration.

What’s interesting about that idea is there’s this ecological place where you can talk about from a system of perspective how all these things are interconnected. Biodiversity is important for that for all the reasons. Some people don’t respond to ecological. For whatever reason, that language doesn’t resonate with people.

We’ve talked a little bit about the moral idea. We often talk about environmental movements often are centered on moral and philosophical, “This is what we should do.” I know these moralistic frameworks and some resonate with that language. There’s also a whole other language that oftentimes conservation groups work in. We’re good at ecological and moralistic, but oftentimes, we don’t work well in economics.

For some, that’s the language. Talking about not just the ecological importance of the beaver and how it connects all of the different things but also then saying, “If you pull the beaver out, it’s going to cost you money.” We worked with J in Florida to talk about the mangroves. There are certainly these amazing ecological services they serve by creating habitats for little fish and a variety of things. Some people are on board with that but there’s this place where you’re also saving millions of dollars because it’s protecting against storms.

It protects the coastline. When you know that Florida is essentially going to be covered in water, all these cups smell too. There’s a protective nature of having more greenery and the fact that it helps to cool the climate. The more greenery you have, the more trees.

An important part of sustainability education is all of those arenas and being able to have multiple arrows in your quiver to be able to direct language in a way to different groups because different groups are like, “I don’t resonate with the moral or the ecological,” but they likely do for economics.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

 

Sustainability Naysayers

One of the questions I wanted to ask you is something that has nagged me since interviewing Paul Hawken and many others over the last four years. I have heard from many in the space that they don’t even like the term sustainability because what are we working to sustain? I wondered what your thought about that was, especially as you represent courses that offered sustainability. Prescott College even calls this degree Sustainability Education, and a PhD in Sustainability Education is what I’m working for. What would you say to those naysayers from the dark green side of the aisle?

There’s a lot of wisdom in that. When you think about what you’re saying, what are we sustaining? For who are we sustaining? We continually marginalize groups so that we can sustain specific privileges. That doesn’t seem to be the right word if that’s what the goal is. It does serve a purpose. The wording of sustainability and the principles behind sustainability have certainly moved some of those peripheries toward the center, which has been helpful.

People just think about sustainability in the past. I think now we’ve moved that way. When we were kids, we didn’t use the word sustainability in this way. It served its purpose but now let’s talk maybe about regenerative resilience. Can we move past that? Can we move to regeneration? Is there a resilience model? Is there a way in which we can do this in a more just way that’s more enduring or responsive? I think they’re right. It’s like, “We’re here now,” but that movement is still not accounting for what we’re sustaining.

Perhaps I see it a little bit differently because I’m such a lover of language. I thought for a long time when I was in high school and into college, that was going to be what I would pursue, a degree in Literature. I wanted to go far in that arena. My father wanted me to go into the Sciences, which I was equally interested in but I simply couldn’t get through all the Calculus, so I chose Anthropology and Archeology.,

Calculus is the great barrier to ecology somehow.

I went and got my MBA and didn’t realize I wasn’t a super quant-heavy program. I had to learn Calculus anyway. It’s like great, I had to sit there and take it now. It was torture. How much of it do I retain? Not very much because that’s the way math is for me. I can work through a problem if I have to with some support now.

As it stands, I’m looking at the word sustainability. I think words are what we make them. The problem is that every time something rises in popularity, its meaning will get co-opted. There will be those who want to benefit from the meaning of it as the groundswell becomes evident. Regardless of the fact that sustainability may not mean to people within the dark green side of the spectrum what it once did. It still has that core.

There’s value in creating that groundswell and getting enough people thinking and talking about something. When we have a term like regeneration come to the main stage and everyone starts focusing on the word regeneration, suddenly, we create a situation where we’re creating a groundswell, interest, and this new category, which has the same core meaning that sustainability used to have for us but no, we mean this now.

We’ll end up in the same situation and probably in five years where it no longer means what we want it to mean. We’re going to change it because this is been co-opted. Now you can buy regenerative beef but we don’t like that you’re getting this from farm animals. Therefore, the vegans on the other side are going to say, “No to regenerative. This is what you should be talking about. You’re the enemy of progress for the Earth because eating beef is bad for the environment.” I’m just painting a picture.

I already see some of this occurring in the fringes. What I’d like to tell my audience and the reason I still keep Care More Be Better is social impact, sustainability, and regeneration. That sustainability word is in there because I will not villainize the perspective. There’s still immense value. Thinking about systems is something that can be sustained because we’re nowhere near that yet. We aren’t there. We aren’t achieving that.

I understand the concept of wanting to regenerate these systems, drawing down carbon, and cooling the environment as supposed to being stuck in this situation we’re in now which will mean whether we’ll continue to get worse for 30 years no matter what we do. Until we start to get to a point where we’re pulling down or not admitting more than we’re admitting, we’re going to see worsening conditions. It’s going to get bad quickly.

Most of those in the know understand that. However, it doesn’t change the fact that we as an emboldened group are going to have to keep working just as hard. I don’t want to create more enemies along the way. I want more people to champion sustainability and concepts of regeneration, to think about circularity and life cycle of the products that they bring into their homes and of the ways that they live. My whole point in bringing that up is why do we have to sit here and try and trash something that we worked so hard to create in the hearts and minds of the populace? Does that make sense?

When you’re talking, I thought about one of the beautiful things about J’s work. He selflessly wanted the concept of Blue Mind to groundswell. He wanted it to be acknowledged that we have an emotional connection to water. That was his goal. There wasn’t an economic driver for him. That’s what it was. It was not a copyrighting. It wasn’t like that.

He just wanted it to be common words, but I think you’re right. When you get a concept like sustainability come to the forefront, it’s how you interpret it. Certainly, there is a lot of room we can go but the word and what it represents has moved the needle which is an important thing. When I was going through school, it was Calculus and Physics that turned me out of the sciences. I had to come back to it in college and grad school. There wasn’t environmental science and environmental studies.

They talk about the environment. Solely, environmental became the word in the late ‘90s, then 2000s. Your words have a lot of power, but at the same time, we’re the ones who committed the power. I agree with that. I think it has done a lot. We still have more room to go, whatever you want to call the room that we need to go. Whatever word represents that wording, we do need to have a more responsive and more just way of thinking. There you go. It’s pretty exciting.

Often, within the conversation that we were talking about, when listening to Sylvia Earle talk about this, these are dynamic times, and how she wouldn’t change it for anything. We have a chance to make changes and re-evaluate the way we think about business and relations and make these important connections. That was helpful.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

 

There’s this place of inspiration in there even if we do need to re-evaluate or continue to re-evaluate. This is important. The other element is the idea of process. I hope we don’t ever come to the word. It’s not a goal. The goal line, hopefully, is always going to continue to move because it’s about process. It’s about not being like, “This is the answer. This is the way.”

“We’re done. We can go home now.”

It’s on-going. That’s the way it is. In some way, that’s good. We’ll re-evaluate and continue to learn and unlearn.

Alaska Outdoor Science School

I was hoping that you could talk to me for a moment about your work up in Alaska with the Alaska Outdoor Science School. This looks so intriguing to me. I have a son who is nine years old and tells me constantly that he wants to go to Alaska to study the outdoors in some way. This is his dream at this age already. He spends a lot of his time watching videos of people camping in extreme climates. Our niece, Ariana, lives up there and is an executive director for a company in Anchorage. I’m hoping to come visit up there at some point and perhaps finding out a little bit more about this school could motivate me to further do that.

I’ll give you a little story before I get there. We were talking about Calculus and Physics. My dad was a professor for a long time in Sociology. He taught for college for 42 years. I grew up in college going to lectures and things like that. When it was time for me to go to school, a small liberal arts college on the East Coast was the obvious choice but I couldn’t go in. It didn’t resonate with me because of those barriers and I can’t go into Sociology, so I went to Business.

To graduate with the Liberal Arts degree, you needed to take what was called a January term. You could do like photography or Japanese cooking or whatever it was. I took a Rocky Mountain Ecology course and went to the Keystone Science School. It was life changing. I was blown away. The group shared purpose and experiential learning.

We learned about tracking, indigenous people there, and ecology. All these different systems approaches and I started to see this wonderful incredible passion. I was like, “This has changed my life and my path.” Ultimately, I came to Alaska to get some more field work after going on and getting a master’s in Environmental Sociology. I was like, “I want more fieldwork.” That’s why I came to Alaska. I thought, “It’s guiding. This is amazing but I have to go back. I’m going to go get my PhD. I want to make a difference.” All these things.

At the end of that first year guiding, this lady came to me from Chicago and said, “I’ve never been hiking in the woods before. I can see why we’re trying to save these places.” That was like, “Oh my goodness.” I had this desire to give that experience that I had, that experiential learning model and that place-based experience, as well as recognize the profound potential for awe that you can get in a place like Alaska and how awe re-orient the way we see the world. That’s how the Science School developed.

The idea is we bring up students. In the beginning, we focused on college students, but now we’re going 8th grade all the way up through high school and into grad school. It’s multiday experiential learning. They learn about the systems approach, developing ecological literacy so they learn about glaciers and they walk on one. They learn about geology and they touch the rocks and all the different things.

We learn about fish biology and we trap fish and core trees. We do all these wonderful things. We go up to the native village and learn to develop ecological literacy, then we go to the native village. We learn there’s this whole cultural importance to place. That’s a wonderful addition, and then we do an overnight in the river. We float in the river.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

 

There’s this wonderful synthesis and people are seeing how all the systems are connected, both ecologically and also socially. They get college credit for it, so it’s this amazing thing that I wish I had. Who knows what the direction would have been? There are a lot of students and people out there who want that type of experience. Alaska is an amazing living country.

Speaking as somebody who thrives in that learning environment, I would have loved it. That’s part and parcel of the reason that I pursued archeology so heavily. It’s because I went on digs. I did digs in Central California and also in France. I learned to speak French fluently. I was able to work alongside some giants in this space. I was able to investigate sites that had seen Ceasar, Neanderthal men, and modern homo sapiens. They shared this environment for years and years. Their history overlaps for about 30,000 years.

My early exploration and desire to become an archaeologist came from this fascination of what it would be like. Every other species on the planet has something a lot closer to them than between us and the apes for the most part. How many species of fish are in the ocean? How many species of rodents do you see? I was fascinated by this and the possibility that our genetics could have been shared or that we might have communicated with language.

Now, we know from a genetics perspective that there is integration. I’ve tested it. I’m more Neanderthal than 35% of the population. Not a real surprise. I have European descent, but this all comes together. My reason for even enrolling as a PhD in Sustainability Education is because I see it as this incredible intersection between my early college. I understand now how sustainability and nutrition fit together and what this can mean for our future. Also, this fundamental understanding is that we need to move mountains.

In order to do that, we need to use the prowess of education and the power of understanding of messaging and how people can absorb the content that’s put in front of them. You have to think about almost creating our own brand of propaganda to get out into the marketplace for people to gain acceptance and grow this movement to build a future that can sustain life.

To me, that’s at the core of what sustainability means because if we don’t do this now, then it’s game over. To get to that understanding and to see that so much of it is so closely connected to how we treat people around the globe, I feel like this is this is where I’m supposed to be. Thank you, Dr. J. Wallace, for helping me to get here.

Neuro-conservation

That’s beautiful. Back to the to the J idea, this notion of neuro conservation. Are there ways in which our brain can relate to environmental campaigns? To bring that into the conversation, that was the work that J validated all my love for water but also started recognizing if we’re going to promote advocacy through education, campaigns, and whatever that looks like to you, it’s about relations.

It’s about creating relations and that’s all where our brain fires. We can no longer produce facts and be like, “That’s how we’re going to change the world. Here are more facts.” We can’t just say, “Let’s pour on the guilt. We’re going to shame people into caring about the environment. Let’s use fear. The planet is going to burn up.” What we’re learning is facts, fear, and shame don’t inspire.

They have to feel like they can take part in something. That’s where I like what you’re doing with this outdoor school. It’s through being able to see the fruits of your physical labors that you ingrain learning in a different way and you inspire people. You mentioned trapping a fish after learning about its anatomy. How few people go fishing now?

I know this is not rocket science for people but I hear about inner-city school kids that have never seen farm animals in person. Miyoko Schinner, who I’ve interviewed on this show before, is a vegan activist. She also is the creator behind Miyoko’s Creamery. She scaled big businesses. She has now put her efforts behind working on the farm that she has called Rancho Compasión. Consider it more of a retirement facility for any animals that come there because they never end up on your plate.

What she’s starting to do is bring people to the farm from those inner-city spaces so they can develop a direct connection, see how farming occurs, and see even how to grow food. They grow plants and make plant-based recipes. They connect with these animals and learn that they’re not just brainless things that we should necessarily go into a field and butcher without a thought. Her goal overall is to get people to think about food sources.

This is one of the things that regardless of what your politics are around food, there are people who don’t understand that beef and cow are directly connected. It’s astonishing but it’s true. For children to not ever have had the opportunity to touch the wet nose of a cow, to me, is sad. I grew up in a small community in Southern Oregon. I was always in connection with some working farm either living with horses on my property or just having that connection.

We raised rabbits and chickens for food. I knew that life too. It was a direct connection. It didn’t mean we didn’t care for them. We certainly did, but I don’t know many people in my area who have ever plucked a chicken. I have. It’s important to develop these connections and understand how intrinsically tied we are as an ecosystem. We’re part of it and not separate from it.

While we can build structures in homes that protect us from the environment, there’s nothing to protect that outer world from the environment. We need to get back to understanding that we’re part of it and we can take part of it as opposed to just trying to live in a sterile environment because that will never work either.

No doubt. You’re talking about this cultural amnesia. A couple of generations have lost that connection to our food. You can give a slideshow of facts. You can tell them what they should do. It’s coming onto a farmer holding or feeding the chicken or whatever the experiential thing is. Those types of opportunities are needed more now than ever. That’s what we’re trying to do in the Science School.

In terms of the sustainability education program, it’s online. At first, you’re like, “How is that possible? How can you do an online and be experiential?” The idea is we realize that we learn in the community. I like to think we learn in the community. We’ll ask you to go whatever we’re teaching. If I’m teaching a module on waste, you’re going to go to your landfill. In that way, it becomes personal.

We learn so much by being in a community.

Everybody is doing their own thing in their community. They’re taking whatever they’re learning in the online space and then directly applying it to whatever their community is. That’s the way we call it community-based experiential learning projects. That’s how we try to make online learning experiential. We can’t all fly to Prescott or Alaska for these peak experiences. How can we do it in a way that’s more localized and develops a sense of place? That’s a pretty exciting pedagogical approach.

I appreciate that. I’m planning to go as a part of the PhD crew to Mexico in January to have some of those experiences in person. I still have to make sure my husband is okay with me being gone for a week. We do have two young boys. It makes life a little interesting when one of us tries to travel.

Sea Turtles

I appreciate that. Circling back to J. He was pretty important in the Kino Bay. When you go there, the whole turtle advocacy campaign, that was all J going there and finding out that they had a shared purpose. It turns out now that the very people who were hunting the turtles are now the people who are promoting advocacy for the turtles. It keeps on circling back to how profound J’s work was or is.

Care More Be Better | Dr. Scott Ramsey | Blue Mind

 

I’ll follow that throughline and I’ll also get in the water while I’m there to scuba. Perhaps you’ll join us too.

I’m hoping.

Episode Wrap-Up

I want to thank you so much for spending this time with me. I appreciate the opportunity to get to know you and spend a moment’s time in honor of J on this show from a personal note as well. I feel like I already have a jump start on the course, given that I have both listened to his audiobook and read it cover to cover a couple of times. This is my life.

I feel like your course and looking over at this first course that I’ll be taking, this is the stuff I would do in my free time anyway. I’ve been to the landfills and seen the protected watersheds. I’ve organized turtle cleanups and all that stuff. This is just an extension of what I already do from an extra-curricular perspective. It feels gratifying in a way to participate. I want to say I appreciate you and thank you.

Thank you for your time and all the work you’re doing. I’m excited to learn with you. Thanks again for your invitation.

Thank you.

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To find out more about Dr. Scott Ramsey and his work with Alaska Outdoor Science School and Prescott College, you’ll find a link on CareMoreBeBetter.com. You’ll now find it at CircleB.co. This is because I’m shifting to that Cause Before Commerce platform. The site hosts the same great content that you’ve seen on CareMoreBeNetter.com, but you’ll also now find how-to guides, and DIY tools to renew what you have, replace things that you buy, and reduce waste, while also shopping for only eco-friendly products. CircleB.co will offer plastic-free products from housewares and clothing and personal care items.

All of which are circular and designed to minimize waste and seek to limit or eliminate waste. For each new subscriber, we are also collaborating with ForestPlanet.org to plant a tree. Once you subscribe, you’ll receive alerts when we come out with new episodes, tools to live a little greener, and specialized promotions from time to time.

When you shop on CircleB.co, your purchase will also benefit the Earth through our commitment to 1% for the planet. This is me doubling down once again to make sure that I am living what I’m preaching. Hopefully, help cover the costs of this show once again. Thank you now and always for being a part of this show and this community because together, we can do so much more. We can care more. We can be better. We can find our true paths and step into who we truly are meant to be. With that, I’m signing off as J would have. I wish you water.

 

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