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Neurodivergent people are key players in developing innovative solutions for a much better world. However, society often neglects, diminishes, or outright discards them. What must be done to support them in the most meaningful ways? Corinna Bellizzi sits down with Dr. Matt Zakreski, who specializes in working with neurodivergent individuals. He explains how to employ meta communication when creating connections with them, the right way to revamp the education system in their favor, and how parents can fully support their interests. Dr. Zagreski also discusses how to address the social stigma surrounding their unique capabilities and create neurodivergent accepting communities.
About Dr. Matt Zakreski
Matthew "Dr. Matt" Zakreski, PsyD is a high-energy professional speaker and clinical psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent (gifted, 2e, ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, etc.) people. He has spoken more than 400 times all over the world on both stages and podcasts about supporting neurodivergent people in all walks of life, from schools to college to the workplace. Dr. Matt is the co-founder and lead clinician at The Neurodiversity Collective. He specializes in taking knowledge of the brain, human behavior, and clinical psychology and making that accessible and practical for people to improve their lives.
Guest LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-zakreski-0a32358
Guest Website: https://www.drmattzakreski.com
Guest Social:
https://www.instagram.com/drmattzakreski
https://www.youtube.com/@drmattzakreski/videos
https://www.facebook.com/drmattzakreski
https://vimeo.com/drmattzakreski
Additional Resources Mentioned:
https://www.theneurodiversitycollective.com
Show Notes:
01:50 – Looking Back
05:24 – Neurodivergence
10:12 – Substance Exposure
14:41 – Meta Communication
20:24 – Education System
25:51 – Parent Support
38:11 – Educational Models
50:08 – Services And Book
58:20 – Knowledge Is Power
01:00:57 – Episode Wrap-Up
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Understanding Neurodivergent People With Dr. Matt Zakreski
Welcome to another interview episode of the show. I invite you on a journey to care more about the neurodivergent people in your life, embracing them as a crucial part of creative innovation so we can build a better world together. Frankly, without people like us in the world, the world might be a little bit less interesting and perhaps it would stagnate.
In this episode, I'm joined by a Doctor of Psychology, Dr. Matthew Zakreski. Dr. Matt is a high-energy Professional Speaker and Clinical Psychologist who specializes in working with neurodivergent people, including the gifted, 2E, ADHD, autistic, and dyslexic. He has spoken more than 400 times all over the world on both stages and shows like this one about supporting neurodivergent people in all walks of life, from schools to colleges to the workplace to your life. Dr. Matt Zakreski, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. You have the coolest intro of any show I've ever been on. I’m hyped. I'm like, “Let's do this.”
Looking Back
I want to get you a little pumped up before we go. There's a reason I play it for you. I always like to start these conversations to get a feel for what led our guests to this moment, particularly this path in life. What made you choose to get your Psychology degree and lean in to support people with neurodivergence?
I think very much that I didn't find this job. This job found me. I grew up as a gifted kid in New Jersey in the ‘90s. I also have ADHD, but no one figured that out until high school because I was so smart, I kept getting away with stuff. If you forget you have a test and you study for it in five minutes and then get a 93, no one notices you forgot the test. You’re like, “I'm going to keep doing this.” You bring your brain with you no matter where you go. From high school into college into being a young adult, I brought my brain with me in the strengths and challenges of having this brain, being neurodivergent.
It's funny, in my early twenties, I worked for a sales company, EF Educational Tours, in Boston. Amazing job to have when you're 23 and single. There was a bar in our office and it was the job they'd be like, “Anybody want to go to Greece this week and check out some hotels?” “I will go to that. Yes, I'll do that. Thank you.” Passport and a suitcase. Let's roll. Every year, I thought about leaving. I would hit my sales goal. They would give me more money. I could go to Paris or Bangkok. I kept rolling over.
There was the summer of 2009. Our company sponsored a little league baseball team and we would walk across the bridge and coach these kids. I fell in love with working with kids again. I was like, “I want to go back to grad school. I want to work with kids. I want to get the degrees that let me do that.” At the end of that sales season, they offer me a promotion. I did that thing where I'm like, “I'm going to go home and think about it.” Let's see if I can squeeze an extra $1,000 out of them.
I was going home thinking about it, and I realized, “If I take this job, I'm going to be here forever. I'm never going to leave.” I walked back in the next thing was I resigned. The bold negotiation strategy. I'm like, “I'm not kidding. Actually, I think I need to leave. I think I need to do something else with my life.” I jokingly call it my quarter-life crisis. I've been like, “I cannot do this.”
I quit that job. I went back. I moved home, then I moved to Philadelphia and got a job working with kids with severe behavioral disorders. A year later, I got into grad school and spent five years in grad school working with neurodivergent kids in various capacities, trying to figure out where is my role in that world because you have the lived experience. Can you come up with the professional experience and credentials that validate that in a way that now I can not only walk the walk, but I can also talk the talk? That's how I ended up here.
Neurodivergence
I think we all fairly loosely understand what it is to be neurodivergent. I think sometimes that is through, let's say, a spinning tropes. For that reason, I wanted to offer you the opportunity to define what neurodivergence means, what it encompasses, and perhaps what it doesn't mean.
Let's start with what it doesn't mean. People will use the word neurodivergent as a synonym for autism. It's a common thing you see a lot online and autism is absolutely under the neurodivergence umbrella, but it's not the only thing in there. There are other things like ADHD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, OCD, and giftedness that are all under this neurodivergent umbrella. Basically, what it means is that about 80% of brains are neurotypical. They function largely as we would expect a person's brain to function for their age and developmental level.
Neurodivergent People: About 80% of the brain is neurotypical. They function largely as we would expect a person’s brain to work for their age and developmental level.
Most people who are 10 are 10 socially, emotionally, academically, intellectually, and physically. They hold it together. A neurodivergent person who has a quantifiably different brain is going to be different across those developmental spans. You might have a kid who's 10 years old but academically 16, emotionally 8, and socially 7. You have to find a way to intervene with that person.
By the way, if that person grows up, in 15 years, they're going to be on your sales team or marketing department or they're going to be your IT guy. You're a person who has the professional capacity of a 40-year-old as a 25-year-old, but maybe the social skills of a 17-year-old. How do you get that person to fix the CEO's computer without losing his job because that's the challenge? Neurodivergence is a quantifiably different brain than we would expect for somebody's age and development.
I think we've dispelled that it doesn't necessarily mean autistic. It also includes giftedness, which is something that I think is somewhat newer than most people's understanding. They would think gifted means exceptional, but often it does mean your brain works differently. If we consider that and where those roots come from, it could also be that perhaps it's a little bit more of Neanderthal DNA coming into play with how our brain functions.
I take this from an exploratory perspective, too, because in my undergraduate studies, I studied Anthropology and Archaeology, and I specifically honed in on Neanderthal speech capabilities, differences in our brains, and how they were organized. What could this mean? Neanderthal brains were bigger, but they also had less surface area. They didn't have as much granulation on the surface of the brain.
We now know that up to about 5% of the human genome can be comprised of Neanderthal DNA and whether that's an earlier connection to a Homo ergaster and carry through or whether it's a direct descendant from Neanderthal. You could debate until you're gray in the beard and I don't have a beard, but you get the thing.
I have enough for both of us. How about that?
Just to think about this, to think about this differently, to say, neurodivergent means different. It doesn't mean better. It doesn't mean worse. It can mean that you have somebody who thinks ahead of their time and is more able to perform well on a test. It could also mean that that individual could be very socially awkward and have a harder time connecting with people. Now, I am the mom of neurodivergent kids. I have one child with ADHD and the other who is on the spectrum of autism.
Frankly, this has caused me, as I get them assessed, to go through my own assessment. What do I learn from this? That I'm also neurodivergent and it starts to explain a few things. I was able to digest a lot of complex information earlier than a lot of other students that I was alongside in classes, but I also had this social awkwardness. It carried with me through to now.
It also is a reason that in social settings, I'm more comfortable after a cocktail or two. I might be the first person to gravitate to the bar to get that social lubricant to then be able to interface with other people and feel more like I'm able to maintain a normal conversation and not stand out like the weirdo in the crowd.
Substance Exposure
Now, I know that this is also a problem in the neurodivergent space because people can sometimes lean on substances that either bring them down so that they can better relate across the board or lift them up a little bit to make them more socially viable. What are you seeing? How might you advise, let's say, a parent of a child that's coming of age and starting to confront moments in time where they might be exposed to substances?
My brain is still reeling over the fact that you say Neanderthal properly.
It means Neander Valley. It's tall in German. That's why.
To me, it's one of those things that, technically, you're supposed to say encyclopaedia, not encyclopedia. I work with a lot of very pedantic people, so I'm very well-versed in this. To me, Neanderthal is you're actually honoring where it's from properly. I think it's a very different thing. Props to you for doing that.
For every kid I assess, probably 2/3 of the parents wing back to me at some point and go, “I was thinking,” I'm like, “Where are you now?” We call this apple tree syndrome because we are living in a society now where it has never been more accessible and more culturally okay to talk about mental health. We still have a tremendously long way to go. We're sure as heck not done, but that means that kids are seeking out diagnosis. They're like, “I think I'm ADHD because I saw these things, or I think I'm autistic because I saw these things,” and then they're asking their parents, teachers or mentors.
I have kids who find my website and email me like, “I'm nine. I think I need therapy.” When I was nine, that was like the closet you never left. It was very quiet, very Harry Potter. I think that's awesome, but that doesn't change the reality that the world is not built for people with different brains. Let's say you're the person who needs a cocktail to feel okay at a social event. What do you do if the social event doesn't have a bar?
The world is not built for people with different brains.
I’m thinking about one of the adults I see who's very neurodivergent, he went to a singles mixer and it was a wine tasting, but nobody told him how to wine taste. He was drinking them and then looking around, like now he's got an empty glass and he's anxious. He went to the bathroom, texted me, and he was like, “What do I do?” I'm like, “You do a wine tasting.” We walked through the rules. Once he understood the rules, he was fine.
There was that like, “Everybody else seemed to get it but I don't get it,” which is a very common experience of being neurodivergent. It’s like, “How come everybody else got that download and I missed it? Why do they know what the rules are?” It's because our brains aren't wired to be on that synchronous level. We're out of sync. We're out of rhythm with that. A lot of things that might come easy to other people don't come easy to us.
If you're somebody who has a tough time in those social environments, the thing I tell my clients all the time is, “First off, can you find more advantageous social environments? You might not be somebody who can do a speed dating mixer, but you're somebody who could go to a Mensa meetup or you could go to an adult pottery class because those things feed your soul. They make your brain happy.”
“Whatever people you're going to meet in those spaces are so much more likely to be wired like you're wired, and vibe like you vibe. I'm not saying you're going to find your partner or partners there, but you have a better chance of finding those meaningful relationships when you lead with interests and passion rather than trying to pretend you're somebody else.
You have a better chance of finding meaningful relationships when you lead with interests and passions than trying to pretend someone you are not.
Meta Communication
One thing I hear from neurodivergent folks consistently is that they're not great at small talk. They prefer one-on-one conversations and tend to go deep on subjects, which makes for a more enjoyable experience. The trope is, “Let me tell you about my hobby,” and then you'll get your crash course in it as opposed to having more of the small talk social setting and that may be part of why it's more challenging for certain individuals.
I'm definitely of that ilk. It's easier for me to go deep with one person, which makes it easy to host something like a podcast and come at it from a perspective of curiosity and say, “Tell me more and let's dive in,” because it's 1 topic, 1 focus, 1 individual interaction as opposed to 16 micro-interactions that might be more surface and topical. Are there specific tools that you might point someone to help them with more of the social niceties that can enable them to do something like go to a networking event and not feel totally troubled or anxious about it?
That's the place where I tell you to start. Seeing small talk is not a thing we must do but as a means to an end. It's like you knock on a door. You cannot just barge into somebody's house. The goal is to get inside the house, but you have to knock on the door. You need to talk to them first. You may decide after that you don't want to go to their house.
This is all very top of mind for me. I finished writing my book, and there's a whole chapter on small talk because it's so hard for so many people in this community. I'm lucky that small talk has always come easy for me. My grandfather was the king of small talk. I think I inherited those genes from him. That's a thing that I'm very good at, but very unusual in the field for that. I can talk the paint off a brick wall if I need to.
What this causes me to remember, though, is going trick or treating with my autistic son for the first time. We go to a door, we're knocking on it, and they come out with candy. He grabs the candy and then goes right into their house like, “What else is here?” We’re here to say hello and find out about each other like, “You've got a dog and a cat.” He was making himself at home. I'm joking, but I also think that there's something to that, like it's an early signal in a way of not catching the social vibe.
This is where I tell my clients to use something that we call meta-communication, talking about talking. I think you and I shared a moment there when you said Neanderthal and I vibed on that, that we both looked at each other like, “We could spend the rest of this episode talking about that if we want,” which would be so much fun. It's not what we're here to do. That's the after-show, I guess.
The idea here is you don't want to think about a conversation like football, or you don't want to be like, “I've intercepted the conversation and now I've got the ball and I'm going to run the other direction.” You can use meta-communication to set up those moments to ask permission or to let people know what's coming next.
One of the things I told one of my other clients was if something comes up in conversation that you could absolutely info dump on, one thing you could say is, “I could totally info dump on this. I'm having trouble holding back.” People are going to appreciate that authenticity. If there anybody in the room who wants you to info dump on, he’s going to slide a little closer to you and be like, “Yes, tell me everything about F18 fighters because I've always wanted to know,” to use a very nerdy reference.
When the beacons are lit, Gondor calls for aid, but everybody can see that the beacons are lit. Let your nerd flag fly. I'm not a fun tie guy. I'm a fun tie clip guy. I'll wear like my Star Wars or my Ant-Man or my Perry the Platypus tie clip, and you always see when people notice because they're like, “Do you like Phineas and Ferb?” I'm like, “I do like Phineas and Ferb. Can I talk to you?”
Instantly, we busted through the level of BS small talk and we've gotten to something meaningful. That's what small talk is. It's a way of figuring out which doors you can knock on and enter and who you can go deep with. You can use meta-communication to set up those moments. You might say, “I'm enjoying this conversation. I also need a drink of water. Can you wait here for me two minutes while I go get a drink of water?”
You're naming the thing that's happening in a way that addresses the inherent anxiety of being in these events because it's very inauthentic. It's plastic in its own way. We're bringing humanity back into it. I think it's a way to bring our humanity into those moments to bring our personhood in. The right people are always going to see that and honor that.
Education System
We started off talking about the big picture in a way, about what it is to be neurodivergent and how you interface with society. I'd like to drill it down to perhaps an earlier stage where we talk about education. I'm not talking about elementary school because it depends. You could be identified as gifted at any stage in your education and journey. You could be identified as being on the spectrum with autism at any stage as well.
Some people aren't diagnosed until very late, until their teens and even into their 20s, or in my case, into my 40s. I'd like to dive into how we can make our education system work functionally a little better for a student or for a child or teenager into their twenties, etc., who is within the system, whether or not the state you're in has a lot of resources for a neurodivergent student body. I'm asking the broader question of when the resources aren't there, what can you do? When the resources are there, what can you do?
We'll start by saying that any neurodivergent education is special education and that includes giftedness. Giftedness is special education. It's on the other end of the IQ spectrum. We're not used to it being over there, but the kinds of interventions we'd make are tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 interventions. Once again, just faster, deeper, richer, not slower, more basic, more individualized instruction and that's okay. The research shows this time and time again. It is the best practice and gifted education is just the best practice and education stops at full stop.
That's so cool not only because it's wildly validating for what I do for a living, but it's also like kids learn better when they can chase their interests. Kids learn better when they have a say in how they're assessed and what they learn. Teachers are no longer the only gatekeepers of information. When you and I were kids, you either had to ask your teacher or ask your parent. That was the only way to get knowledge. Now, we all carry around these phones, and I have more access to information than any human in the history of the world right now.
Kids learn better when they can chase their interests. Teachers are no longer the only gatekeepers of information these days.
Kids nowadays aren't growing up needing to know the capital of Wyoming because they can Google it. What they need to know is why is the capital of Wyoming, Cheyenne. Why is it not Jackson Hole? Why isn't it Laramie? Let's have that conversation. That's deeper. It's richer. It's more interesting. Through the lens of what we call Interest-Based Learning or IBL, you see kids learn the foundation of academic skills that they need to pursue their interests while pursuing their interests.
You have a kid who says he wants to learn about the history of comic books in America. You need to learn how to read, how to write and how to do those things. Those kids are much more willing to engage in instruction that allows them to engage with their materials of choice than they are when the teacher arbitrarily decides you're going to read The Wind in the Willows.
I happen to love The Wind in the Willows. It's a classic, in my opinion. Another kid wouldn't want to read that. Why not let that kid read Minecraft books or Cam Jansen or Pokemon manga? The foundational skills of reading and making meaning from text, that's what we want our kids to learn. What it looks like is, I would argue, secondary.
To your point, and earlier when you mentioned that Gondor is calling, I automatically know that you're a Lord of the Rings fan. My son, who's nine years old, all he wants to read are books that relate to Lord of the Rings. He has read The Hobbit. He is reading Lord of the Rings. He has read The Children of Hurin. I have never even heard of that book before, but it's apparently like a prequel that was published after JRR Tolkien's death, but it had been in the vault, so to speak.
Here he was at 8 or 9 years old, reading above his level, but I could sit there and painfully try to get him to read something of his level or let him read something that was a few letters above what he was supposed to be engaging with. He might stumble through it a little bit, but he's learning faster. Every once in a while he'd say, “Mommy, could you read this paragraph for me?”
The reason he would do that is because he liked the prose in that paragraph, and he wanted to hear how it would flow better from somebody who was much more fluent in reading the written word at that point. Leaning into something that he enjoys versus what he's asked to read, I think, has helped him to get over the attention hurdle since he is somebody who suffers from ADHD somewhat painfully, as I'm trying to sit down and do homework with them.
Parent Support
I think that there are generally speaking concerns when you have a parent who has a child who is diagnosed as being neurodivergent. Anyway, whether you hear that they're gifted or that they suffer from some a learning disability or delay, they might have dyslexia and have a harder time getting to learn to read, or I'm forgetting the other word for when you're math dyslexic. What was that? I think you mentioned it briefly.
Dyscalculia. It's a hard word to say.
If they suffer from one of these, it makes it harder for them to pass a standardized test. That can introduce some hurdles as well. My point is that overall a parent comes from this first from a place of concern like, “What do I do? How do I support my child's health and development, their learning journey, ensure that they're accepted socially and that they are able to function and participate in things like sports.” What would you say to that individual?
The most important thing we do, and I think this applies to whether you're a parent, a professional, a CEO, a teacher, or whatever your thing might be, you have to work with the people you have, not the people you wish you had. It's so hard for a lot of parents. As a dad myself, I can say it seems to be harder for dads, as a parent, to have the kid you have, not the kid you wish you had.
Since so many neurodivergent people, if we're speaking very broadly, are not so much into the whole sports thing, but dad was like, “I was a high school football star.” I'm like, “That is spectacular. Your kid's going to do marching band and LARP on weekends. We have to find a way to be okay with that. That's your kid's bliss.” I personally would do great with your kid because I love Lord of the Rings and I can absolutely talk about The Desolation of Smaug if we need to. If your kid was like a Dr. Who person, I've never fallen in love with Dr. Who. That's not part of my nerd world and that's okay. I can find you somebody who is into that.
When you meet a person where they are, not only does this become a moment of connection, but it becomes a moment of equity. Everybody gets what they need. Now, what we think they need, now, with other kids, is their age need, but what they actually need. We can build outward from there in terms of academic engagement, intellectual stimulation, social skills, and emotional skills. I've got kids who've made more friends getting plugged into a school for kids who learn like they do than they have made in public school.
One of my adult clients, we found a way to get his company to let him work from home, except for the 5 to 6 days a year when he has to come into the office. He has more friends now working remotely than he ever did in the eight years he had to go into the office because he was spending so much energy being a corporate guy that he didn't have any energy left to be the authentic version of himself, which he was a spectacularly weird guy in the best possible way.
That's the thing.Yyou start with interests and you build outward. There are communities that are going to honor that and reflect that and lead with that academically, socially, and then as your kids grow up, professionally. There's a reason I work for myself. I get to create the rules written and unwritten for this company in a way that is neurodivergent and friendly than if I worked for like a large community health organization. I would constantly be friction rubbing up against that stuff. It's not like I cannot make it work, but I would rather spend my energy in another place. I'd rather redirect that towards joy rather than coping.
It's just like the example you gave of that individual who, in the workplace every day, struggled to connect more with their employees or fellow colleagues. They went to work from home and were able to nurture those relationships because they had the energy to go to the right place. I think that's insightful and helpful for people. I also acknowledge, as a parent of neurodivergent kids, that leaning into what they're interested in is helpful. My older son, because he's so into The Hobbit and everything Lord of the Rings, also likes to go on outdoor adventures.
I think he puts himself and his mind into the space of these journeys. I knew how to flint knap as part of my undergrad with Archeology. I did lithic reduction sequences, which means figuring out how a stone tool was made by the shrapnel that's left from it. You're able to piece it back together like a very complicated puzzle and see not only what the tool ended up being but how it was made. This could help you see how technology was shared from tribe to tribe or group to group.
This is something that I took my nerdiness and inserted it with my son. He's reading textbooks on how to create stone tools. Even at the young age of, I think, I gave him for his eighth birthday, obsidian and little tools to go ahead and make the stone tools, all the safety gear that's required with it. He's essentially working with the sharpest material you can create in flint knapping, but because he was so meticulous and interested, I had faith that he wasn't going to cut off a finger in the process.
This enabled me to engage with a very interested child. Now, he wants to go on outdoor adventures all the time. We are going backpacking on the weekend and doing things along these lines because this is a learning environment for him in which he thrives. I hope to lean into that for the years to come and to be able to explore how his mind engages with the space around him from his perspective in a way because I'm nurturing that and working to be a part of it.
You are a very bright and capable person, but what you're talking about is something that any single person can do. There's no magic book to this. There's no special download that only you have. You started where your kid was and you branched outward from there. One of the kids that I work with they're also a big Lord of the Rings guy. They had to do a school unit on cooking and were like, “I won't. I cannot. It's stupid. I hate it.” Having anticipated that, I was like, “When Mary has a second breakfast, what does he eat for a second breakfast?”
It rattles off like a bumbleberry tart. I'm like, “Cool. What's a bumbleberry tart? I don't know. Could we figure that out? Hold on. It’s this. Cool. Do you want to make a bumbleberry tart?” “Wait, what? Can I do that?” “You can do,” because cooking is a sneaky way to leverage every academic skill. It's reading, it's math, it's time management, it's executive functioning, it's resilience, it's waiting. Especially if you're baking, it’s like, “Duh.” It's the idea that the kid is going to learn all those skills through the lens of his interests and level up in so many ways, rather than saying like, “We have decided you're making a croissant.”
Neurodivergent People: Cooking is a sneaky way to leverage every academic skill. It is all about reading, mathematics, time management, executive functioning, and resilience.
He's like, “I don't want to make a croissant.” Like, “Tough. That's what we've decided.” The idea here and the reason that neurodivergence fits so well into the social justice world is that giving people what they need is a piece of social justice. It's an equity thing. It isn't like, “We should try to do this.” No, it's like, “This is what people deserve.” You deserve to be honored, celebrated, and seen for who you are, from the color of your skin to who you love, to how your brain works, and a million other factors I'm not talking about. One of the things that neurodivergent people tend to have in common is a strong sense of justice.
I was one of those people as a kid who like, “There's a homeless person outside, why?” “Some people are homeless.” “Why? Why aren't we doing anything about this? Fix it immediately.” I couldn't let it go. Why do I get so passionate about fighting for my clients, school, and work? It's like because this is a fundamental human. Your kiddo deserves to live in a world where his brain is honored, not considered some baggage. He's got to drag across the threshold. Like, how dare we, how dare we think that way.
This is part of why I asked that earlier question about what you do when the resources are there and when they aren't because right now, I feel like a lot of the support that you're talking about and creating systems that enable us to honor the individual, they're on the ballot this year. For instance, we've already heard from Donald Trump that he wants to gut education. This is something we saw in a microcosm when he was in the presidency last time with Betsy DeVos, taking away a lot of resources that public schools had.
Now, I happen to live in California. Living in California, there are certain things that our state provides that you don't get in other spaces. I have pretty intense support. What I would say is intensive support both through my healthcare and through the school because I filed an IEP, which is an intervention education program for my kids to make sure that they get the resources they need to have the best possible education journey for my ADHD child. This means he has trouble focusing in class on projects that take perhaps too long for his brain.
He gets pulled out more frequently to focus on different things and to get more one-on-one support to help him finish some of those longer-term projects, but also to keep him engaged because an engaged child learns and one that's disengaged becomes a distraction in the classroom. We also have my younger son, who is on the spectrum of autism and his primary issue is social. He has a harder time engaging in group settings and group projects. It's like he lacks the confidence to participate in a group setting.
Educational Models
He needs more one-on-one time for that reason to be able to gain that confidence and move forward in a healthy and productive way. Both of them are getting these levels of support because we have the infrastructure here and the personnel and staff that can supply it, as well as because we're actively involved in their education. They have us advocating for them. In many cases, especially when you have both parents working and you're in an area where there's less support for these things, your journey could be hampered. What do we do?
The single biggest bang for the buck that we get when advocating for these kids is thinking about where and how education is delivered. Public schools are required to meet the educational needs of a kid. On the surface, that sounds like great policy and practice. It doesn't always happen, especially for bright kids. My colleagues in North Carolina, the name of their North Carolina Association for Gifted Children podcast is They'll Be Fine because that's what people say about gifted kids, like, “They'll be fine.” “They won't.”
The point here is that your kids need to deserve to be met in school that's a grade skip, if that's acceleration, or if that's enrichment. There are things that you can advocate for in whatever state you're in. You probably have a state-gifted organization. California's is particularly strong and will provide local meetups and statewide support. They know who to call and contact and ask to make the changes in that public school environment. Now, if you cannot make that happen, you can absolutely get your public school to pay for your kid to go to specialty school because neurodivergence is a piece of special education.
Under FAPE, if your school district cannot meet your kids' needs, they have to pay for you to get educated somewhere where they can. For a lot of my kids, especially kids who are twice exceptional, so gifted plus another neurodivergence, usually ADHD, autism, dyslexia, we will leverage that to get them at a school that works for gifted or twice exceptional kids because that school is a specialized environment that's going to get that person's needs met. It's not dissimilar to having people in corporations nested in ERGs that are neurodivergent affirming.
I did a training for IBM about their ERG for their neurodivergent people. I'm like, “You all are my people. I love talking to you guys because, yes, you guys are getting my nerdy Star Trek references. I'm here for that. That's, that's awesome.” If you let them on the Savannah, they would get picked off by lines. That's a problem. We need to give people safe spaces. If you can get public schools to do their job, super. If you can find a way to get paid for a gifted school, awesome. That school doesn't necessarily need to be in person, though I tend to prefer that.
There are lots of great online gifted schools, some of which are synchronous. You log in at X o'clock and that's when the classes are. Some of them are asynchronous, where it's like, “You'll meet with your coach once or twice a week, but then all the classes are in the cloud and you learn them when you're ready.” Some kids race through that content and some kids take their sweet time and do it in bits of drips and drabs. That's another educational model that works for a lot of kids.
Last but not least, let's talk about homeschooling. Probably the single biggest change I've made since I started working with this community professionally is how I feel about homeschooling. I will admit I used to think homeschooling was for religious nut jobs and weirdos. Now it's like, for a lot of people, not only is this the only option, it's actually the best option because then you can fully customize from when your kid wakes up to what they want to do, to how they do it.
If you have a kid in public high school who wants to take art all day and the way their schedule is they have art eighth period. They've got to wait all freaking day to get to the eighth period to do art. You are setting that kid up to fail. You are setting them to school with a lit fuse. Whereas if that kid was homeschooled, it's like, “Mom, I want to do art this morning.” Cool. End of conversation.
I've heard this referred to in some cases as unschooling.
Unschooling, yes.
I was curious about it when I first heard about it. I'm like, “What is unschooling?” They're basically taking this approach of unpacking how you would make a traditional education happen in a public setting and focusing more on what I initially referred to as some of the alternative schooling systems, usually for young children.
Like Montessori?
Montessori. There's another one that's German-sounding.
I could make a kindergarten joke here, but that a lot of people go to the Montessori model for getting other neurodivergent kids because Montessori, done correctly, leans into that meet the kids where they are thing.
It is generally only offered through a certain grade level and typically not into high school. I think that's very helpful for certain individuals. It also tends to be quite costly. It becomes something that's only available then to people who have some privilege already because even if you were to have some funding support from the government, it typically wouldn't cover all the costs of going to, let's say, one of these Montessori programs. That, to me, is definitely part of the problem because giftedness has this association with being elitist.
While I think being gifted is not itself elite. Your brain works differently. You can do some stuff other people cannot do, sure, but there are some things other people can do that you cannot do. No neurodivergence is a superpower, nor is it a death sentence. It is a series of strengths and weaknesses. I think where a lot of the stuff that is gifted as elite comes from is that these schools and programs aren't cheap and the families that can afford them drive that. I was on the phone call with a family who were financially able to choose between a school that's $37,000 a year and a school that's $42,000 a year.
They can afford that and God bless them. They've worked for their money. I wouldn't take that away from them, but we're talking about the top first percent of people in terms of financial wherewithal and a family from down the block who cannot afford that for whatever reason. They deserve to have the same seats at the same tables. That's the thing that gifted education has done poorly. I would say right throughout our history. We've not gone looking for the kids who need the leg up, the kids who are from underperforming school districts, the kids who are largely black and brown who are being missed because we know they exist.
It's a numbers game. If gifted is the top 2% of kids that age and you're in a school district, I did a talk for the Los Angeles Unified School District last year. I said, “You guys have this many kids in your school, and you should have this many kids in your gifted program simply by the number. You have 1,000 kids in your school, you should have 200 kids in the gifted program. How many kids do you have in the gifted program?” They were like, “Less than that.” I'm like, “Right.”
They might have five, like, let's be real. One of those things is identifying the giftedness or even the intellectual challenge. They don't have the resources to throw at it or they're not spending the resources or the parents aren't paying enough attention and advocating for their kids for any number of reasons and sometimes through social stigma. This is one of the things that even prevented me from filing for an IEP earlier with my younger son. My reason for choosing to finally do so for both children wasn't because I was having such difficulty with my ADHD kid.
I was like, “I might as well. We'll see what will happen.” I finally had a friend speak the truth to me, which is like, “Look, you don't realize you're going to thank me once you do this and life will change for you.” I said, “What if I find out that my kid has some difficulty and how do I manage that?” It had this social stigma in my own mind that prevented me from wanting to seek it out earlier. What I will tell you is the public school was calling me to have me pick up my kid from pre-K. Basically, they were in this transitional kindergarten class, 3 days out of 5 a week because he was acting out in some way.
As soon as I filed the IEP, that stopped. Part of it was that the school now feels like they've got a different lens that they're looking through. Suddenly, it's like, “This child is now going to get additional resources and we won't necessarily have to say, Mom, come get your kid.” I think we need to be honest with ourselves about our prejudices and whether they are driving our decision to even consider whether we need more resources because we're saying, “I don't want to confront this issue.”
The stigma is real and I would never tell a parent to pretend otherwise. We can sit here on this show, people getting what they need because we believe it. In the real world where the claws are sharp and the teeth are pointy, that is a much harder thing. It requires a very real sense of you have to have the time and the energy and the wherewithal to have those conversations, to fight those fights, to ask those good questions. It takes time and money to talk to somebody like me. It takes time and money to fight the school. A lot of families are it's enough to get the kids' shoes on the right feet and out the door in the morning.
That's when it makes more sense to tap into resources, like collectives, educational advocates, and somebody who can do the grunt work for you because it's a lot to take on itself. That's why I do so much advocacy as part of my job because I cannot ask the parents to take on anything more. I say, “Partner with me. Let's see what you're able to do and I'll do the rest.” I'd go to those meetings because, first off, they don't have to like me. I'm a hired gun. You have to maintain a relationship with the district. If your kid's going to play soccer or be in the orchestra, do state testing or get picked up when they have a fever. They got to like you. They don't have to like me.
Services And Book
You've helped me perfectly segue into what will be the last stage of our interview here. What is it that you do as a service? I know you're going to be speaking at an event in my backyard and the Berkeley area. What is it that you do as a service? If you wanted to give us a preview of this book that you have completed writing, I'd love for you to do that as well.
What you did was perfect meta-communication, by the way. You named the thing that was happening and used it as a transition. Everybody who is listening to this goes, “I know what's about to happen.” That was perfect. Meta communication. It's not some skill we don't have or need to learn. We all do it. It's doing it with intention. That's what makes it cool. Working with neurodivergent people is a global job. It's therapy. It's consulting. It's working with the people in that person's life.
I was trained in what we call the systems model of therapy, which is every system in which a person interacts with their family, their romantic partner or partners, their activities in the community, their education, and their job. We could keep going. Each one of them brings a certain set of psychological strengths and a certain set of psychological weaknesses. By addressing all of those systems, we can adapt them as best we can to that person's needs. Sometimes, that's as simple as let's not write this person up if they get to work at 9:07 because they have ADHD and it's hard to get out the door in the morning, as long as they're aware that they have to work to 5:07 if they get there at 9:07.
That's an easy accommodation. Anybody can do that. The idea is that I'm going to try to make your environments as friendly and accommodating to you as possible while I work with you to build the skills necessary to navigate those systems. The whole idea of therapy is that you don't need me forever. You shouldn't need me forever. Don't leave me for as long as you do. That might be 2 months or 2 years or 20 years. I don't know. It's not my call, but the idea is that I'm teaching you how to ride a bike. I'm not always going to be your training wheels.
My book is designed to be a pocket version of me. My most popular talks and my most popular therapy sayings and practices are distilled into 99,460 words. The editor will, I'm sure, cut that down a little bit, but that's the current number. It's all about practical strategies. I'm not an ivory tower guy. I'm a boots-on-the-ground guy. I get my hands dirty. This stuff works because I use it because my clients use it. This isn't like, “In a situation like this, all you need to do are these three things and you'll be fine,” because that's ridiculous.
Life doesn't work that way. It's like, “Here are the parts of this. You can control, focus on doing these couple of things, and give yourself permission to tap out when you're done. You can navigate dinner at your boss's office, on a blind date, being stuck on a subway car underground, or any other combination of things.” It's about empowerment. Empowerment comes from a place of understanding who you are and how your brain works.
Empowerment comes from a place of understanding who you are and how your brain works.
Do you have a working title for your book?
It's called the Neurodivergent Playbook: Cracking the Code of A World Not Built For Us. It's all about this idea that 80% of people are neurotypical. They built the world. They built the systems. They wrote the rules, both spoken and unspoken. Neurodivergent people sometimes run afoul of those rules because our brains aren't wired to pick up on that stuff. I realized it's a theme that has come across the scene, hundreds of therapy clients over the years. It's like, “Why does everybody else know this stuff and I don't? Was there an email? Did I miss the email?”
Let's name that stuff. Let's bring that out. If therapy is anything, it's making unspoken things spoken. That's what this book is trying to do. I'm going to name the thing that you've been grappling with in the back of your head for the last ten years. Now you realize there's a name for it. Now you realize there are strategies to minimize that or navigate it. You're empowered, you're leveled up and you are much more able to navigate the world. Everyone wins in that scenario.
I have to ask you, what was the favorite talk you've ever given?
Favorite in terms of title or favorite in terms of like setting?
No, in terms of topic, like your favorite talk to give.
My favorite talk to give is, is my talk on Imposter Syndrome because it's the topic where you see those light bulbs go off. Neurodivergent people are very susceptible to imposter syndrome because imposter syndrome happens when you are made to feel different from your environment. That can be overt, like you're the only person in a wheelchair in your office, or it can be covert like, “I have ADHD and I cannot tell anybody.”
That feeling of difference creates a different pathway to success. That different pathway says, “I'm a fraud. I'm an imposter. I don't belong here.” There are a lot of downstream mental health outcomes that are not so super. Leading with that, that's a talk that I've given probably 100 times at this point. It's something that always resonates with people specifically because of the way neurodivergent people load into that space.
I imagine that you can find that talk somewhere online, perhaps on your site.
It's on my Vimeo page. It's on YouTube. If you want to, email me, and I'll send it to you. I posted all my stuff openly if I could.
I'll embed that on the podcast blog page here so people can dive in for a little bit more context from you. I imagine this is also going to be in your book. When are you planning the release?
The book should be available for pre-sale around Labor Day. Copies will be going out. I'm doing four state gifted conferences back to back, Alabama, Tennessee, Illinois, and then Indiana.
When it's ready, let's say I'm going to put my hat in the ring and offer to be an ARC reader, which is an advanced reader copy. I am very good at finding issues in a book that need to be resolved, which most people overlook. Minor issues like you'll see, “This seems to be a thread to an earlier thought that wasn't continued or perhaps it was taken out in fiction and in nonfiction.” It's a powerful skill of mine.
Not only would I be honored to have you be a part of that, but frankly, it's the thing I need. I know enough about myself and my kingdom for a good editor because my brain makes lots of sense to me.
I've seen books that get edited by more than one person, and there still is an artifact from an earlier edit that it's like you've read the text so many times that you've replaced it in your mind. I don't know that I'm the best editor in the world, but very good at copy work at the end of the day.
I have great confidence in you. I will absolutely send that your way.
Knowledge Is Power
I've so appreciated today's conversation. I would love to offer you a moment to give us closing thoughts. Perhaps it's the idea that you want people to walk away from today's conversation thinking about.
Knowledge is power and circles back to a thing we said earlier, the stigma, and something like, “What if I find something through the diagnosis process I'm not happy with?” It is always better to know that you're a zebra, not a weird horse. The reason I lead with neuroscience when I talk about the things I talk about is because those labels have meaning that we can attach to brain science. If it's not those labels, the labels our kids get are things like a jerk, difficult, defiant, unteachable, bad employee, bad partner.
The more you understand about how your brain works, the more you can lead into the world through strength and knowledge. Neurodivergence is never an excuse, but it's always context. If you're somebody with sensory needs, that's going to show up for you in a lot of different places. If you feel empowered to share that with people, then they know more about how to help you and you feel more helped and you do better and everybody wins. Knowledge is power.
Neurodivergent People: Neurodivergence is never an excuse, but it is always context.
I love that. Thank you so much, Dr. Matt. I hope that you'll come back on at some point in the near future, perhaps to talk about this book as it's prepared to release the Neurodivergent Playbook and we can dive into imposter syndrome because it's something I'm sure our audience would enjoy. Thank you so much for joining me.
Thanks for having me.
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Episode Wrap-Up
To find out more about Dr. Matt Zakreski and his work, visit DrMattZakreski.com. Now, as a reminder, we're preparing to launch our new cause before the commerce site. It's called CircleB.co. This site will host the same great content you find on CareMoreBeBetter.com while also providing helpful resources and tools to live a little greener and a little more socially responsible and locally engaged. You'll find how-to guides about DIY tools to renew what you have, replace what you buy, and reduce waste. We will also offer plastic-free products, from housewares and clothing to supplements and personal care items, which are circular and designed to minimize waste and ultimately help you live greener.
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Important Links
- Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- The Wind in the Willows
- The Hobbit
- Lord of the Rings
- The Children of Hurin
- They'll Be Fine
- CircleB.co
- TheNeurodiversityCollective.com
- Vimeo - Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- Instagram - Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- YouTube - Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- Facebook - Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- LinkedIn - Dr. Matthew Zakreski
- The Neurodiversity Collective - Dr. Matthew Zakreski